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Does this violate copyright/use restrictions?

Started by jbensman, July 31, 2011, 12:47:27 PM

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jbensman

I get lots of people wishing they could see My Trails and one of the topo maps from this site at the same time in MapSource/Basecamp.  While I know how to solve the problem, I am not sure if doing this would violate copyright or use restricitons for other topos on this site.  I also would not want to tell people how to do something other map authors may object to.  So I would appriciate some guidiance on if it is OK to tell people how to combine My Trails and another topo on this site so they can see them both at the same time in MapSource.  It seems like it should be OK since the img files would not modified so long as it is only used for personal non commerical use. 

I suspect the other map authors know what I am talking about and how it could be done.  But I don't want to say too much before I know it is OK.  So if any of the other MAP AUTHOURS don't know what I am talking about doing, send me a personal message and I will explain. 

Boyd

I think you will have some conflicts with custom type files, won't you? I assume you would just mix tiles with another map. If so, personally I don't want people doing that with the maps I've uploaded here because they use non-standard types that will conflict with whatever you're doing.

As someone who's had a long career as a designer, I feel the visual intergrity of my maps is important and prefer that people use them in the form they are provided. I can't stop somebody from modifying them, but I'd rather that they didn't.

Just my opinion, since you asked.  :)

Indrid Cold

#2
On the technical side, mixing transparent and non transparent mapsets doesn't work very well, especially when both use their own custom .typ files. You'll end up with the problems as the California TOPO: http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/maps/view/28

Plus what are Macintosh users going to do?

At the other end, you have licensing agreements that do not allow for modifying the product, and it would involve copyright issues.

If you want to make the raw data available for other map authors to use, that would solve the issue on both ends.

jbensman

Mac users would have to get a PC.

There is no problem with having transparent and non transparent imgs mixed in MapSource/BaseCamp.  The CA map you speak of works fine in MapSource (So does My Topos which is a combo too).  The problem is it is confusing to load to your GPS.  But I would specifically warn them not to use the combined map to load the maps on thier GPS.  I would tell them to load to your GPS from My Trails and the topo.

Yes I agree typ files are an issue.  But only for view in MapSource.  Since they would not use the combned map to load to the GPS, typ files are not an issue for the GPS.  So they would only have to chose which typ file to use when viewing in MapSource.

You do not have to modify any file so I do not understand what copyright or use restriction there could be.  All that would be done is install the maps differetly so that they can both be seen at the same time in MapSource.  Does copyright/use agreements require you to install the maps the same way the installer does?  Would it be a violation to change the directory or drive to something other than what the installer installs into?  I could be wrong, but I just don't see how this could violate copyright or use agreements.  That's why I asked.  Can you please be more specific on what this would violate.

I agree with Boyd, that I would prefer users to use the maps the way I designed them.  However, I have no problem at all if someone wants to modify the typ file for thier own personal non commerical use.  I don't want to impose my taste on others.  Its like adjusting settings on your GPS.

maps4gps

A delicate subject to comment on.

As useful as it might be, I feel someone who has learned how to create a mapset realizes how to do this and appreciates the time and resources it takes to create a mapset and is likely to respect the copyright and use agreement of the original mapsets.  Providing details to everyone may cause a lot of copyright/use violations of both free and commercial mapset.  I would also expect a lot of questions from people who did not understand the process or try to modify it.  Consider the small number of posts there are here on map creation issues when this site was originally created to share ideas and issues on map authoring and share our creations with others.
Second (third) Boyds comment on possibly conflicting custom .typ files.

'Mac users would have to get a PC' - Love that.  It takes as long to upload a MAC version as it does a PC version, but only about 1 in 8 downloads are for the MAC.  But it is not a realistic expectation.

Users may not have the computer power and/or storage space for individual and combined mapsets.
"Specifically warn them' and 'tell them' will still result in a larger percentage of users ignoring this and then asking for help then you would probably be wanting to assist.

I see two issues with including the trail data in other mapsets
1.  It would have to be included when the .mp files were built.  To include with an existing mapset would involve rebuilding the .mp files, then compiling the .img files, then building the mapset and installers (PC and MAC), then uploading.  Given the near absence of new map authors willing to create state topo maps, I just spent many months creating and uploading revised mapsets for States I did two years ago and those where the original map authors have not been active in the past 2-3 years.
2.  Mytrails is often updated to include new trails.  Many States could be 'out-of-date'  before it would be possible to get the mapset created and uploaded.   

Seldom

jbensman and maps4gps,
Have either of you considered uploading your trail and off road data to OSM?  It seems to me that OSM would make an excellent central repository for trail and off road data, and if properly done, it's routable.
I realize the quality of the Tiger import is a problem, but that's getting fixed.

Boyd

I think the issue is a little like the the videographer who makes a brilliant video using a Rolling Stones song as the audio track. If he distributes the video without sound and says "listen to 'Gimme Shelter' while you watch my video", then that's OK. But if he includes the audio track in the package he distributes, then he will need permission.

This is because somebody else's creative output is being used to enhance the value of his own work. In a similar way, your trail maps are not  so useful unless viewed along with another author's work. I realize that no money is changing hands here at gpsfiledepot, but it seems (to me) that the principles are the same.

QuoteI agree with Boyd, that I would prefer users to use the maps the way I designed them.  However, I have no problem at all if someone wants to modify the typ file for thier own personal non commerical use.  I don't want to impose my taste on others.  Its like adjusting settings on your GPS.

I don't think we quite agree here. I guess it depends on whether you consider your maps a work of art or just digital data. The whole idea of art is to impose your taste on others.  :)

jbensman

Quote from: Seldom on August 01, 2011, 11:45:20 AM
jbensman and maps4gps,
Have either of you considered uploading your trail and off road data to OSM?  It seems to me that OSM would make an excellent central repository for trail and off road data, and if properly done, it's routable.
I realize the quality of the Tiger import is a problem, but that's getting fixed.

Lots of the data in My Trails has more restrictive use agreement/copyright than the use agrreement for OSM.  So I cannot upload the data to OSM.

jbensman

While I have not heard anything that conviences me doing this would violate copyright or use agrreement, as I said in my orginal post, "I also would not want to tell people how to do something other map authors may object to."  It sounds like while it appears legal to do this, map authors do not want me to tell people how to do it.  So I will  not unless a map author steps forward and says they are OK with me telling someone how to do it with thier maps.

I get people emailing me about this all the time-I've had 2 requests in the last week.  But I have never told anyone how it is done (one person emailed me once telling me they figured it out on thier own and it worked great).


jbensman

Quote from: Boyd on August 01, 2011, 12:10:13 PM
I think the issue is a little like the the videographer who makes a brilliant video using a Rolling Stones song as the audio track. If he distributes the video without sound and says "listen to 'Gimme Shelter' while you watch my video", then that's OK. But if he includes the audio track in the package he distributes, then he will need permission.

This is because somebody else's creative output is being used to enhance the value of his own work. In a similar way, your trail maps are not  so useful unless viewed along with another author's work. I realize that no money is changing hands here at gpsfiledepot, but it seems (to me) that the principles are the same.




While as I said, I will respect map author's desire for me not to tell people how to do it, I don't think this is a fair comparision.  What you describe would be if someone combined the maps and redistributed them.  I was wanting to tell people how they could do it for thier own personal non commerical use,  So I would say it would be comparable to someone watching a video without sound and listening to another song at the same time.

You also seem to be forgetting the maps are combined and viewed at the same time on the GPS.  While I think the best solution would be for MapSource and BaseCamp to be able to view more than one map at a time, what I wanted to tell people how to do was the only workaround I can think of to get around a defect in MapSource/Basecamp. 

Like I said, I absolutely will respect your desires, but if MapSource allowed two maps to be viewed at once, would you object to someone doing this?  Do you object to someone viewing your maps combined with another map on their GPS?  While I will respect map authors wishes, I just don't see the difference.  I just see it as a workaround for a defect in MapSource.

jbensman

Quote from: maps4gps on August 01, 2011, 11:30:57 AM
A delicate subject to comment on.

As useful as it might be, I feel someone who has learned how to create a mapset realizes how to do this and appreciates the time and resources it takes to create a mapset and is likely to respect the copyright and use agreement of the original mapsets.  Providing details to everyone may cause a lot of copyright/use violations of both free and commercial mapset.  I would also expect a lot of questions from people who did not understand the process or try to modify it.  Consider the small number of posts there are here on map creation issues when this site was originally created to share ideas and issues on map authoring and share our creations with others.
Second (third) Boyds comment on possibly conflicting custom .typ files.

'Mac users would have to get a PC' - Love that.  It takes as long to upload a MAC version as it does a PC version, but only about 1 in 8 downloads are for the MAC.  But it is not a realistic expectation.

Users may not have the computer power and/or storage space for individual and combined mapsets.
"Specifically warn them' and 'tell them' will still result in a larger percentage of users ignoring this and then asking for help then you would probably be wanting to assist.

I see two issues with including the trail data in other mapsets
1.  It would have to be included when the .mp files were built.  To include with an existing mapset would involve rebuilding the .mp files, then compiling the .img files, then building the mapset and installers (PC and MAC), then uploading.  Given the near absence of new map authors willing to create state topo maps, I just spent many months creating and uploading revised mapsets for States I did two years ago and those where the original map authors have not been active in the past 2-3 years.
2.  Mytrails is often updated to include new trails.  Many States could be 'out-of-date'  before it would be possible to get the mapset created and uploaded.   

Its not a perfedct solution, but it is the only one I can think of that would get around mapsource not showing more than one map at a time. 

I will offer again, if any author wants to include My Trails data for a state, I will agree as long as copyright and non commerical use is maintained.  All you would have to do is include the state img.  Obviously there would be the problem of it could be confusing on loading maps.  But it will work.  As to update, all they would have to do is when they update My Trails copy and replace the existing trail img in the topo map directory and press ctrl g twice. 

But I would want them to load My Trails from My Trails as there could be problems loading it from the topo map after it was updated.  A mapsource file that has all the mapset without the trails could be distributed that people could open and send the imgs to the GPS.

Yea there are issues with this, but the best solution is for Garmin to fix mapsource or basecamp to display more than one map at a time. 

maps4gps

Quote
Have either of you considered uploading your trail and off road data to OSM?  It seems to me that OSM would make an excellent central repository for trail and off road data, and if properly done, it's routable.
I realize the quality of the Tiger import is a problem, but that's getting fixed.
Trails100k - I had previously gathered this data from USGS SDT files for possible use with TIGER transportation, but there were too many conflicts.  There were some posts that Garmin's initial 24k topos (western States) contained few, if any, trails and/or less than what was in their 100k product.
I created a mapset and installer and uploaded it; however, the source data is now at least 20-25 years old and probably averages another 25 years before that.  It is one of those mapsets I wish I would have never uploaded; unfortunately OZ is very reluctant to remove a mapset, especially if it is often downloaded.
TrailsOSM - this was created from a download of OSM data.
OSM - Unfortunately they did a mass conversion of TIGER when Census was about 1/4 into a spatial realignment of database.  I have found no information that they knew this, nor planned for it and how to intergrate the changes submitted in the past few years.  This was also before Census began the release of the full extent (number of features and coordinate pairs defining non-linear features) of TIGER.  This makes the data about 2-1/2 times the size of the earlier released versions.
Unless there have been major improvements in the past year, OSM is far from being able to create a useful/quality topographic map.